Our city recently built a new medical/emergency center, and now my house is in the direct path of the Life Flight helicopter which sometimes flies over several times a day.
How bad do you think this might affect a future house sale and how would you overcome this possible obstacle?
My husband thinks its no big deal. I don't agree.
Thank you!This message has been edited. Last edited by: sunnysunflowers,
Not knowing where you live it is difficult to answer. In any case, your local realtor is your best reference.
IMHO, it is no big deal. A helicopter does not make the roar of a plane or expressway.
I have several that fly over my home daily. Yes, they make a lot of noise but only for a short time. Usually when I hear one I realize someone's life is in grave danger and I say a quick pra*yer for all involved.
I totally agree with momaspoon-that was my first thought. We looked at a house near a military airbase & it didn't take long to find out we could not buy there...in the flightpath. Your situation would not be something I would worry about.
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They fly over our home daily. I am in total agreement with Mamaspoon. My father was in it one of the times. I am glad it was there.
Mercy Flight (Life Flight)is our familiy's number one charity. We are in the direct path and all I think when I do notice the sound is "Thank Gd this service is availble."
It's not as noticible as kids squealing in a pool, motor cycles, barking dogs or my alarm clock.
They saved my son's life twice. I would buy in their flightpath any day of the week.
Life is GOOD!!
I want to thank everyone for your answers.
I am a praying person and I pray each and every time the Life Flight flies over (even at 3:00 in the morning). I know it is a serious situation for the person on board.
I am glad to know that being in the flight path probably will not be a concern to most buyers.
Thanks again for all your kind responses.
[quote] sunnysunflowers, So, in the event of future re-sell, I would address the situation head-on.
Get a log from the medical facility involved as to the frequency of the flights and provide the same to potential buyers, let them know all about it and HOPEFULLY they will feel the same as most who have posted here - that being woke up from a sound sleep is worth it when lives are being saved. [quote]
Several thoughts come to mind here, sunnysunflowers, that haven't been asked yet. Exactly where in the flight path are you and where is the trauma center located? Seems to me that if you are very close, constant emergency sirens might be a larger problem than life flight? Do the helicopters just fly by or what?
I know, simply flying by can be extremely LOUD.
But is it a momentary thing or one that takes 3-5 minutes to subside? In any event, I stand by my initial post to disclose the facts in totality and, then, you will be in the clear from that time on. IMHO, disclosure is key, so when you sell, you will know that you can move on with assurance that no problems will come back in the future to disturb you.
As I said before, who knows? Perhaps your future potential buyers won't be concerned at all and, instead, will be attracted to the immediate health care available. I do think you are wise to be asking the question, though. Now, before you are ready to sell....
As far as mandated disclosures from a legal point of view, RErocker is right. You will need to discuss that with a qualified real estate agent conversant in your particular state's requirements at the time of the sale - rules and regulations are ever-changing re disclosure so any answers here today would need to be reviewed when and if you are thinking of selling.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Idaho Resident,
Would I be obligated to disclose information about the Life flight path over our house to potential buyers?
No, not from what you have told us. Just curious, med evac flights end at trauma center, but where do they originate from? In our town, the helicopter is based at the airport, then does pick up and delivery. Also sometimes we get aero med from other regional centers and they head back to their home base.
We are also in a flight path but I don't think that it's a big deal. If you were in the flight path of airplanes that would be a major problem. I don't think that you have to disclose it after all it's not on a schedule and you really don't know how often or when it flies over. The helicopters here are kept at the trauma center and are sent out to get the patients and return to the center.
Sunny, this is an issue that's coming up more and more frequently. Builders naturally purchase cheaper land as growth occurs in metropolitan areas. That cheaper land often is near airport facilities and under flight paths.
More than one state requires disclosure. I've seen a 60-65 decibel level referenced previously. Some statutes would define your area as an airport influenced area or AIA.
If you sold your property, would you want to risk a subsequent lawsuit? (A buyer might claim you purposely withheld information that you definitely would have known.) In general, it's best to disclose, disclose and disclose.
The rules have been changing - probably within the last 10 years as more and more states require disclosure. If I were you, I would call my realtor and ask about the standard disclosure rules in your state WRT flight paths and noise levels.
BTW, I do agree with previous posters - when buyers actually live with these situations, they usually get used to them. IME, there's always the difficult buyer out there, however, who will raise the issue and possibly pursue you and your dh for nondisclosure, if it's required in your state.
ETA: Now that I'm thinking about this issue and various sales we've handled in multiple states and their standard disclosure statements - IIRC, a couple of studies have been done and their general conclusions confirm negative impacts on property values due to either proximity to airports or noise levels. Those are probably available online, if you're interested.
Sometimes the various states' standard forms require disclosure of proximity to an airport. Others include general noise level disclosures, IIRC. In addition, your realtor may be subject to disclosure if he/she has knowledge of the situation.
To start with, you can check the disclosure statement you received when you purchased the property for its standard wording. If it were me, however, I wouldn't rely on it, depending upon when you purchased your home. Those statements evolve over time and are updated, accordingly.
The question is, depending upon the actual wording and your state's specific rules - do you want to risk a sale on a technicality and hope for the best? Flight maps or noise impact studies may be available for your local area and sometimes these are attached to the TDS (transfer disclosure statement) to cover it.
More of MHO. Best of luck -This message has been edited. Last edited by: RErocker,
I was more concerned that the flight path would STOP buyers from making an offer on our house after we list it.
It never occurred to me that we could be sued, after purchase.
I truly don't want to seem ignorant, but after a buyer purchased our home, what exactly would (could) they sue us for?
Could they seriously take us to court over the flight path situation and win? And what exactly would the judgement against us be?
It's not like the Life Flight is a well kept secret, especially when we list the medical/emergency center as a new feature of the city.
They are welcome to ask questions about it.
If they don't ask, do we have to volunteer the information?
I enjoy peace and quiet, so when my husband and I move, I will make it a priority to find out everything I can about the house, land, sky area etc., because noise is a BIG problem for me.
Wouldn't it be the buyer's responsibility to find out all about the area and neighborhood and all that goes on there?
What exactly falls under the 'Caveat emptor' rule?
Thanks!This message has been edited. Last edited by: sunnysunflowers,
I apologize, if my post wasn't clear, Sunny. Your 6/15 a.m. post asked about the duty to disclose.
Yes, your flight path location may certainly dissuade potential buyers from making offers, if/when you decide to sell. WRT any potential disclosure obligations, IME, it's best to be open and honest upfront. Do you want to receive an offer only to have it either withdrawn (possibly for cause, depending upon the state regulations) after you've possibly stopped showing the property and/or escrow's almost closed and/or you're almost moved?
A buyer would most likely claim that you knew about the flightpath location, airport facility, or noise level (or whatever's applicable WRT the regulations) but failed to disclose, even though it was leg* ally required. One possible def* ense might be that the situation was open and notorious. Again, however, you should review the disclosure rules in your state and also consult experts to determine your risk, if necessary.
I've worked on transactions in many states but wouldn't describe any of those states as caveat emptor, WRT RE transacations. What if an out-of-area buyer made an offer on your home but had only limited opportunities to visit the area and investigate any undisclosed details? You mentioned your own noise issues. How would you feel if you bought a home (if/when you purchase a replacement residence) and then subsequently discovered that information critical to your own buying decision had been withheld?
It's up to you and your spouse to check into it further (or not) and decide (or not) about the level of risk you're personally comfortable with. Sorry if I didn't provide the answer you were apparently hoping for and/or expected; personally, I believe forewarned is forearmed. Others would rather not know -
Again, all JMHO. Take care.This message has been edited. Last edited by: RErocker,
I believe it is different in different parts of the country. Where we are it is on land in a business strip along the highway. So there could be houses right behind it, though it is semi-rural so there are not.
Sunnysunflowers, please do not be alarmed by what is said here. Everyone is giving their information as they see/know it. But we have no clue where you live. Real estate is local, laws are local.
You should concult a local real estate agent. Even if you are not intending to sell, most are willing to give you the kind of general information you seek.
When we lived in DC, we were not in the direct flight path to National Airport, even though we could see it from across the river. Airspace there is restricted because of security concerns. But, we were occasionally treated to Marine One helicopters flying low and close on their way to the White House. Very exciting; gotta tell you.
Also, the municipal police in DC, as they do in most major cities, occasionally deployed their helicopters with searchlights when pursuing a bad guy. It was rare.
Also, you could always hear or see the local TV or radio traffic helicopters. Or, many times aerial photographers in helicopters overhead.
Now, that we are in Texas, located 45 minutes from Fort Hood, we always see and hear military transports bringing troops home.
My point is: unless you are living in the middle of nowhere in a complete no-fly zone or in a state that requires that kind of disclosure (which is doubtful when dealing with public service flights)you will occasionally encounter some kind of helicopter activity. I don't think it's at all a dealbreaker, but best to discuss with your local RE agent.
Getting back to your original question re. the flight path of emergency helicopter -- It isn't like the helicopter is taking off on the roof of your house.
It sounds like the building of a new medical/emergency center is a win-win for your community.That is the area of our economy that is growing and your home values will be sustained or grow with it.
ITA, all RE is local. That's why it's critical to review your state's disclosure requirements with a local area expert. We don't know your location so we're all speaking in generalities.
BTW, even though development has frequently occurred under/around flight paths so these situations are common, state disclosure rules WRT noise and certain facilities have also become more common. It could be as simple as a paragraph in the disclosure statement containing the local telephone number of the applicable agency to verify both the flightplan maps and the noise decibel level.
WRT development, again, it's location, location and location. General development and economic activity may increase overall property values; OTOH, if your home happens to be located near the medical facility and daily commute traffic becomes unbearable, a negative effect may occur.
Fortunately and unfortunately, my clients compensate me to not only consider all the options but also protect against the risks. That's why I'm forced to consider the worst case scenario. Sorry if my post sounded negative, Sunny.
Best to you -
I have lived near a medical center for 25 years. On one block I lived on for 15 years, 3 professional nurses and 2 resident physicians lived at and owned/improved their properties. My current block has 1 professor/nurse and 1 resident physician as owners and residents. The employees of the medical center often look for homes near the medical center - especially if they have to do "call hours" or commute frequently. Health care is the fastest growing market and prospective owners are looking to buy! With respect, I think you and I see buyers differently with regard to our communities.This message has been edited. Last edited by: happy 9,
That's great, kiwi - good for you. Sometimes it works well but other times, not so much. Unfortunately, we have the opposite situation in our metropolitan area. The busiest and most popular medical center, including a major trauma facility, has some of the worst traffic on a daily basis at any and/or all times of the day. Yes, trauma cases are typically helicoptered in.
I know and work with many of the medical professionals - they don't care to live in that area, even though many of them lease or buy office space adjacent/across from the center. Incidentally, the housing near the facility and in that city is generally upscale and extremely expensive. (Haven't verified the relative appreciation rates between the homes near the center v. that city's other neighborhoods recently so can't speak to that.) Needless to say, I've been stuck in traffic near the facility many times, irregardless of the time of the day.
Agreed, overall economic activity is usually positive but I run across more than a few nimby-homeowners or prospective homeowners who don't care to sit in bumper to bumper traffic for over 30 minutes (twice daily) merely to reach (or return from) either the freeway or public transportation.
Yes, the health care industry continues to grow as our population ages. (It's one of my specialties so I've worked in it for years, BTW.) It's terrific if/when you or your family members are retired or in need of those services. (but hopefully not seriously ill) Unfortunately, it's not always great, if your home is located off that same major traffic artery and you're commuting daily.
So, if a prospective home is located just off the traffic artery, it could be a negative. If your home is located in that city but in an outlying area, it may be a positive. The answer in many if not most of these situations is: it depends.
Again, all JMHO.This message has been edited. Last edited by: RErocker,
RE Rocker: I am confused by your message...One of your specialties is with medical professionals but you diss commuting around the medical area. What do your clients experience? (bumper to bumper for 30 minutes?) I was speaking of physician residents. I am sure you have many in your metropolitan area. What area is that? I have asked you this before but I never get a concrete answer. You don't need to disclose your high end clients but please let us know you are really a profitable real estate agent..like give us a location/firm name.This message has been edited. Last edited by: happy 9,
The new medical/emergency facility with the Life Flight was built by Cleveland Clinic, so it is a well known and respected hospital.
kiwikiwi, thank you for your great comment about employees of the medical center may want to buy a home closer to work!!
Our home is only about 10 minutes from the new medical/emergency facility (a real plus in the winter) and you don't have to drive the freeway to get to it.
We are hoping to put our house on the market next June, after our son graduates from high school.
Thank you everyone for your replies!!This message has been edited. Last edited by: sunnysunflowers,
Sounds like a great plan, Sunny! So happy for you -
Cleveland operates in many locations and multiple states so don't know what's happening in your local market. Whatever's going on, I sincerely hope next year works out well for you. In RE, location matters but good timing helps, too!
Funny, your description of your area sounds somewhat similar to the example I mentioned above. In that area, anyone who sold either a parcel of the small quantity of available land and/or a residential property subject to rezoning probably did extremely well, if they sold in the early years, before both the center and the surrounding area grew exponentially. Incidentally, if the center isn't adjacent to a freeway or highway, the traffic situation may change if/when either the center and/or the surrounding area grows - unless tptb mitigate it.
WRT the disclosure situation and the noise issue, the general rule is, IMHO: when in doubt, disclose. Sounds as if you're in doubt or you wouldn't have initiated this thread. Many states cover this with a noise checkoff box and then require a written explanation. It also might be covered under a catchall paragraph as in Other or Miscellaneous for nonobservable conditions.
If you're honest and upfront with potential buyers, they'll appreciate your candor. If they love your home and are committed to purchase it, they probably won't even bother to investigate the situation further. You'll spare you and your spouse any potential future problems by disclosing it, if required in your state.
Obviously, your realtor will review the disclosure requirements for your state with you and your spouse. Best of luck to you -
All of this post - JMHO.
kiwi, your last two posts were inappropriate, off-topic and extremely inconsiderate to the OP besides being downright stalkerish. I happened across this website several months ago and reviewed its rules and regulations at that time. Funny, I don't recall any such requirement WRT profitability. No matter - we're very proud of our results.
BTW, do the other RE professionals who post here realize that financial statements must apparently be submitted? Besides yours, I've never seen a post containing any such demands. Do we forward those to you, directly, or HGTV?
I'll need to verify the required format to allow my CFO to comply. What, would the last 3 years of AFS plus the current ytd be sufficient? Where's the link to everyone's submissions to review those formats? (We'll start with yours b/c I'm sure you properly fulfilled all the requirements.) Please respond immediately with that link together with the relevant HGTV requirements.
So, apparently anyone who expresses an additional or alternative opinion on any mb thread must be either unprofessional and/or untruthful, if said opinion differs from yours. If you doubt the veracity of my posts, on this or any other thread, please quote the specific sections to allow me to respond. If you plan on making additional personal accusations, please take it to a PM.
Incidentally, your last two posts belonged in a PM. Oops, my records indicate that I previously responded to you in a PM. You obviously received those posts because you responded to the first one. My last pleasant and courteous response remains unanswered after nearly a month. I'll happily print those messages for all to review, if the HGTV system allows me to do so and I have enough time. You were obviously insincere in your initial PM.
WRT this thread's RE issues, the existence of either appreciation or depreciation in any given residential area does not confirm or deny any positive or negative effects from a commercial facility, traffic and/or noise - or any other factor, for that matter. If you do not understand why that statement is factual, then, with respect (as you said, above), I suggest you consider taking advanced RE investment courses at a local college or university.
Furthermore, if I seriously suggested to my employees or investors that we invest in a particular area because a few professionals resided there, I'd be laughed out of my conference room. If you base decisions on assumptions, conjecture and/or emotion, I doubt you are (or will become) a profitable RE investor. If it makes you feel superior that some particular person or persons live(s) in your neighborhood, that's terrific.
Sorry to disappoint you, kiwi, but medical professionals do not bid up the properties surrounding the center discussed above for multiple reasons. I could explain those reasons but, since you doubt the veracity of my posts, I won't bother. BTW, I could have also cited multiple examples and provided detailed information about other major medical and/or commercial facilities in cities around the U.S. that haven't experienced above-average appreciation in adjacent residential areas. Obviously, you're not interested in the facts.
Incidentally, I only found the time to return to the mb this evening so just noticed Sunny's good news. Funny, after several days, you couldn't be bothered to congratulate her. Guess that indicates your true motivations.
WRT your stalkerish demands, I will not, under any circumstances, jeopardize the safety and security of either my family and/or my employees and investors.This message has been edited. Last edited by: RErocker,
The tone of your reply scares me so let's just consider a truce. I am sorry if I asked too many personal questions.
Best of luck to you next June.
Kiwi - I don't think you were being "stalkerish" at all.
I don't think you have too much to worry about. You mentioned Cleveland, so I assume you're in the city? People who live in a city are bombarded by noises all the time. A helicopter is just flying by. And unless you're right next to the helipad, medivac helicopters don't really have a prescribed flight path. They just go where they need to go. The exception is when there are adjacent facilities, and flight paths have to be set up to avoid conflicts.
I was going to suggest keeping track of how many helicopters you experience each day to get an average, but that may just make you obsessive about it. I bet in a few months you'll hardly notice.
Of course I don't know what the real estate laws say. I think people need to do their own research, or hire someone to do it for them. Personally, I'd rather deal with the occasional helicopter than a railyard, interstate highway, racetrack, or athletic fields.
I apologize, Sunny - don't know what would scare you. I suggested the same thing throughout the thread; to review your state's regulations and speak with an expert. Never considered any of your comments overly personal. The remainder of the post wasn't addressed to you. Best of luck with your plans next year -
So, that tells us you won't mind providing your name, address and financial statements, 40kpaintchips? That's not stalkerish, 40k? That's what was demanded of me, above. I've never requested anyone's personal information on a thread. I'm sure you'll respond with that link immediately, right?
Let's just call a truce. Please reread the email I posted this morning:
The tone of your reply scares me so let's just consider a truce. I am sorry if I asked too many personal questions."
Having just gone through the buying/selling process, there was no where that one would put "might have a helicopter flying over you" in either state. We're located near an airport here, planes do go overhead, and the new house is quite a bit farther from an airport, but since we went to see it 3 times, we did see an airplane (quite high) coming out of that airport. Also, in our investigation, we found a railroad track outside the development. We did our own research to determine if that was an issue for us - but neither would I expect someone to tell me, nor do I have any idea how far that concept would go. Sometimes when the wind blows right, you hear traffic from an interstate that is quite load - and when it's trash day, the trucks are really loud as they go through the neighborhoods... I think noise is in the ear of the beholder (because many of my neighbors don't seem to even hear it) and it's not all the time. I never saw "if there is anything you think might bother someone about your house, please put it here" on the forms. It was just specific questions (have you had problems with your property specifically), and nothing about the area in general. Must be different in some states - I know that Connecticut didn't have a place for something like that (which is why I always talk to neighbors....), nor did Virginia and I haven't seen anything in Florida. BUT - I do always look around the whole area, and we visited the house 3 times at different times of day which is why I know the planes go by...... . Regardless, I wouldn't think having the Helicopter go past your house on occasion would be a bad thing.. Living near DC, there are occasions - as an earlier poster said - when they're having training or test activities when those big scary helicopters come around - strange, disconcerting - but interesting.... But again, you're around DC - just kind of assume people know they have training activities every once in a while......
Agreed, and I have bought and sold homes in NY, TX, and DC. In fact, I would be gobsmacked if there is any state RE regulation that requires this kind of disclosure. The only disclosures I have seen relate directly to "known" issues with the structure or property, not to issues that might be construed as incurable defects, such as proximity to highways or landfill.
It's usually the buyers' responsibility (and part of their due diligence) to look carefully at the surrounding area, at different times of the day and days of the week, to get the bigger picture.
It also helps to read the local papers, talk to neighbors and to seek the assistance of a knowledgeable buyer's agent/rep, to get more insights into the surrounding area.
Deb & aych, we weren't discussing (at least I wasn't, anyway) the types of open and notorious noise situations mentioned in your posts. Yes, buyers should investigate the surrounding areas and understand that certain noises are typical, normal occurrences.
Instead, we were discussing (or me, again) the types of significant noise situations that a buyer may not know about (but a seller has notice of) like flightpaths and frequent helicopters overhead. The buyer can't stay overnight in the prospective home to determine if the decibel level is such that his/her sleep will be frequently interrupted and work performance may be affected.
Yes, I understand and agree that many homeowners often become accustomed to these noises and eventually won't even hear them. Again, we're only talking about serious and significant situations, here. In addition, unfortunately, many doesn't mean everyone.
These are the types of situations that often result in the establishment of noise zones. As mentioned above, IIRC, the disclosure may be so simple as to report the existence of a noise zone and include the local and/or 800 phone number to allow the buyer to investigate the situation further, if he/she cares to. The sellers normally receive notice of these zones so they are aware of the situation.
And why would disclosure be required? Because, in general, these situations are considered a material defect that would negatively affect value. Sellers are required to report material defects. WRT the various states, I don't like to comment about them specifically, because regulations may change and I don't have the current forms/information in front of me. In addition, I don't know the dates of your various sales. This, however, is not an unusual disclosure requirement.
Deb, your post, however does point out, IMHO, the reason why it's important to consult a RE professional. You mentioned that you and your husband did your own investigation before selling. If you were referring to VA, VA actually has (or had anyway, IME) a special form to report noise zones. If you only referred to the standard VA RE sales disclosure form, you may have missed the other form. If you had consulted a professional, presumably he/she would have referred you to the other form and discussed the required disclosures, if any.
Another thing about VA is that a huge, class-action occurred there regarding the FA18. Needless to say, IMHO, VA professionals are diligent in reporting noise situations. WRT FL, IIRC, FL has (or at least had, anyway), a catchall material defect section on their RE disclosure form. (If any of our FL professionals care to comment about litigation or these situations in their state, I'll obviously defer to them. We have done major deals in FL, however, and I'm pretty certain they had that clause.)
Another way these situations are sometimes covered in legal documents is by referring to the buyer's and/or tenant's right to quiet enjoyment of the property. (That's usually a standard lease provision, BTW.) Incidentally, quiet doesn't only refer to noise but, in general, includes all nuisances or interferences. If your buyer can't sleep every night and it interferes with his/her inability to work, he/she won't be happy with a seller, if the seller failed to disclose a noise zone or other serious, known noise situation.
Yes, unfortunately, the reporting requirement may cover something like a neighbor's dog, if it barks all night, basically every night - that's a situation that occurs frequently, might be considered material and the seller probably knew about. Again, the buyer can't stay in the home overnight to discover these things. Neighbors and others might not necessarily know about the dog outside the seller's mbr window. (Neighbors can't be relied upon to report all material defects about a seller's property.)
Anyway, sorry for the long post. Just wanted to clarify that we were (me, anyway) only talking about serious situations - not the occasional, normal type of noise/nuisance.
All of this post, JMHO.
kiwi - that's an impressive, classic, non-apology, apology. No, sorry, I won't agree with you that I did anything wrong by requesting the exact same information from you that you hassled me about over more than a month.
Let's see, you harassed me not once or twice but many times! (If anyone else reads this, it's not only over the public mb's.) And you have the unmitigated gall to call the exact same request from me "scary"!
I won't play your game so I suggest you stop harassing me. It would have been impressive, if you had uttered three simple words, I was wrong, instead of trying to incorrectly accuse me of something. Needless to say, any apology at this point in time will be meaningless.
I will do whatever's necessary to protect my family, friends, employees/colleagues and clients. Count on it.
RE ROCKER, I started to apologize to you and even posted the message. I cannot understand what you want from me in the way of an apology. I never asked you to disclose the financial information re. your financial statements. I simply asked if your company was profitable. You overstated that question. Your boasts both in the boards and IM were impressive but not substantiated.
I began reading these boards when I was recovering from a life-threatening surgery because I love real estate and historic homes.I am not not real estate professinal I am uncomfortable with your message and you are welcome to post the IM message you sent me. I am signing off on the boards.This message has been edited. Last edited by: happy 9,
OKAY, OVER AND DONE WITH! Now, let's move on. Kiwikiwi and RErocker, both of you are very valued posters here on this forum and I look forward to reading posts from each of you...
Getting back to OP's original question. Sunnysunflowers, I'm glad you have some time to look into the situation before you are ready to list; good luck and let us know how it goes.
In my opinion you need to mention the helicopter situation. But emphasize that you are "close to an excellent emergency medical center". You might attract someone with health issues who needs to be close to that hospital.
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