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Would be GREAT to go green and not have huge energy bills to pay.

http://www.hgtvpro.com/hpro/ph...6_5930260_04,00.html

They are getting smarter every year.

Star Island, Bahamas sounds interesting.
"Going Green"

http://www.starislandbahamas.com/#/green/

I'm sorry BJ, I am just upset with the facts on green.
Solar takes more than a decade to reach equilibrium with standard KwH production in this country.
But why be tethered with the factoids? Enjoy!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TangoW,

The WSJournal article on solar today, 3/30/11 shows what takes place when solar panels are installed.
I condensed post, 6/15...
The Shiels/Kielys, husband and wife in AZ., the solar-ideal environment in the U.S., using 72 solar panels. Their elec meter spins backwards most months but the hottest one, August, according to the article.
Who can handle the $80,000 initial investment? Someone whose electric bill annually is $5,000. That's $416 a month average...
or, 2970 KwH's useage a month under the Arizona power supply used there.
"The question is, 'is society willing to pay for it' says Stanford U.'s director of Program on Energy and Sustainable Development."

About the Shiels/Kielys,
...Pinnanacle West Capital Corp gave the Kielys $37,600 in rebates.
These solar owners are allowed to continue to use the same amount of electricity they did before the solar was installed. Who's to say nay?
The state of Arizona kicked in $2500 and the Federal Renewable-Energy Tax Credit added $12,700 of yours and my tax dollars for the 72 panel array.
This was at reduced costs! Solar panels run wholesale about $1.70 a watt due to increased competition according to the article.
It now costs 2.10 per Kwh for solar with all this help. I imagine their power company costs are about a tenth of that on average.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TangoW,

We need more COMMON SENSE and less Green in building homes. Green is great if it is practical but most isn't. There are lots of ways to efficient like longer overhangs on the roof to shied the windows. Windows set so only winter sun makes it directly into house. Planting trees to shade the outside walls. We put insulation in every wall of the house inside and outside. It acts as a sound barrier as well as a heat shield. If we weren't using a room it is shut off, heat from that room didn't pass to another room. We have two stories and space between stories is heavily insulated. Stairwell to upstairs has door, when kids leave we shut door and shut down upstairs and heat doesn't come "down" it goes up and out. Heat from rooms like laundry room, kitchen and baths is removed from the home, and blown out side in the summer and into the home in the winter. Nothing I have mentioned is costly. the home has 3800 square feet and I have not had an electric bill over $350 yet in an all electric home. This is Texas and it is HOT so that is great. Most homes in the area are approaching $1000 a month. You don't need to spend a fortune to save money. Just be smart about how you do it.

Welcome, irchr. Thank you for the post.

With regard to the cost of green electic, and whether it would be great, here is how electric companies charge solar photovoltaic customers for their "inter-connection" on the grid. (this connection and its maintenance is originally set up by the electric company for free or minimal cost at the residence):
Glossary of terms: Metered means a solar photovoltaic customer connected to the grid.
Non-metered means a standard, non-solar customer who pays for his power as has been done for fifty+ years.
A reliable solar company named FAFCO in Florida states that up to $7.00 extra is paid by the metered, solar power resident if he doesn't use 1341 total KwH per month. It's quite absurd, but there is a cost to the electric company for keeping a residential photovoltaic system connected to the Grid, and its monitoring of solar production on the Grid.
Other electric companies in the U.S. have different billing...In California one company checks total twelve month solar output against the solar customer's twelve month consumption of its electric power company's usage. It will provide one check for the solar customer if the electric company's usage over twelve months is a negative number. Otherwise, there is no check in the mail for the solar customer.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TangoW,

Green marches on! Walgreen!
Take the Electric Vehicle...
40% of recharging stations will be run at Walgreens (WSJournal, acquired from Energy Department Data, July 22)
including Houston and Los Angeles which already have them, Boston, Denver, New York City, San Francisco, Washington, D.C. and in select locations in Florida, New Jersey, Oregon, Tennessee, and Washington.
Leaf owners, give us a report! What's its cost per KwH for fillup? How goes the waiting experience? Do you have to stay by your vehicle or can you shop?
I would expect to pay an attendant a five-er an hour plus elec costs of .50 a KwH. How close am I?

I am picturing meself waitin' in line...drink, snack, cell phone, computer, Self-Serve. Aye, cheapskate.

Hi Greenies!

Nice to see everyone still here.

I have some exciting news. We are in the process of putting in solar! Our house faces nearly due south & the roof fits 38 panels. That will be able to satisfy 80% of our power requirements. What could be better than that!

Well, this... the part that makes it all possible, in fact, makes it a no-brainer is this: NJ has a program requiring the utilities to generate ummm... something like 18% (???) of their power by renewable sources within the next few years. In addition, the state has taken the lead in standardizing metering and has provided a financing model involving the issuing certifcates call SRECS (solar renewable energy certificates)

So what that means for me, the consumer, is that, at current values, the SRECS from the power I'll be generating will pay off my system in less than 5 years. And that is inspite of the fact the the state rebates are no longer offered and also doesn't account for my electric saving (all year long since we have a hybrid heat pump furnace) for just having the panels.

Here's some info on how it all works: http://www.njcleanenergy.com/r...ble-energy/home/home

Needless to say, systems have been sprouting up all over. All you need is good sun exposure and enough life left in your roofing to make it all worthwhile.

I'm really proud that l'il ole joisey has taken the lead, with the fastest growing market and the total # of installs second only to CA.

We've passed state muster, but unfortunately hit a glitch from the town (natch!) Seems code has changed very recently where newer truss roofs may need extra bracing. We are due to have the inspection for that tomorrow. Keeping my fingers crossed that my house was over-designed.

See you all soon!

- J

Good luck, JSB, it's a big investment.

Looks like you will get as SREC credit, as much as .70 a KwH or as little as .10 a KwH depending on the trading of the SREC credits. That is a huge spread; but $.617 was average for May of 2011, so generous, I don't know how they can pay that. N.J. rates aren't a third that.
One does have to know how to cash in credits and when, in any case.

I hope they don't give out hypotheticals...it would be nice to know what the real figures were on a 38 panel system this previous twelve months.
Is your 38 panel, similarly-positioned system from the example, good for 9 Kwh production average for 4 hours of solar a day? (N.J. has 4 hours sunlight per day, average over the year.)
Then you could produce 1350 KwH per month, or 1.35 Mega watt hours times $617 (May 2011) per MwH equals $833. Subtracting the monthly elec usage from that leaves probably $650 a month, or, $7800 a year on the plus side in credits.

Something's wrong here. Even Alaska in winter gets four hours of sunlight a day. New Jersey averages twelve hours of sunlight a day. It may not be direct sunlight, it may sometimes be somewhat obscured by clouds or precipitation but clear skies are not required to produce electricity. These systems do not operate in 100% "ON" or "OFF" modes during the day, they produce proportionately to the amount of light available.

Anyone basing an investment on "scuttlebutt" from the internet (unattributed) gets what they deserve.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Steak:
Anyone basing an investment on "scuttlebutt" from the internet (unattributed) gets what they deserve.

One would assume that. One would also assume that a great deal of what is printed on the internet on green has a lot of lipstick on it.
Until you or anyone else on MB comes up with some real experience figures, and that will be our first on MB, this topic will continue to be a blind date.

Tango -

It was YOUR post, since removed, that based an argument on internet "scuttlebutt". Maybe the new poster will give us some real life figures for today's equipment and installation, but until he has a year's experience no long term conclusions can be reached.

In the meantime, continuing to use archaic arguments regarding sun-tracking, batteries, and off-grid installations is meaningless to the vast majority of today's grid connected net metering systems. There is no lipstick for that pig.

If I recall correctly, you had some adverse experiences with pioneering systems many years ago, is that the sole basis of your negativism now or are you possibly heavily invested in traditional energy sources?

I calls them as I sees them, Chuck.
I am invested in common sense green. I have no stock in anything traditional.
I have mentioned a dozen green applications in my own home. Not one cost the taxpayer.
Solar and wind farms seem good investments for our country. Individual systems should be carefully reviewed.

Hi,

My fiance and I are currently in escrow for our first home. Yay!!! The home is not built yet but once building starts we have about 20k of upgrade credit. One of the options is adding solar panels. From what the builder tells us, its a great assest to have in regards to low electricity bills. That's great but how beneficial will it really be? We are located in southern california where its sunny 95% of the time. In addition, its just my fiance, me and our 2 and a half year old who will be living in our home which is a little over 2200 sq. feet. Does anyone know how beneficial it will be for us to upgrade to solar panels in regards to our monthly electricity bill? My fiance would like to upgrade to them but Im unsure of how much of a pay off it would be to have them since its just the three of us? I personally would rather be able to upgrade for other things. . .FYI, upgrading to the solar panels would be about7k. . .If anyone can give me some clear info on the pros and cons of solar panels I would really appreciate it!!

You've come to the WRONG place. Here there is talk and speculation, you need facts. How many panels do you get for the money? How much power will be produced? Is a net metering program part of the installation? Are there grants from the power company, county, state, or federal government available? What's the warranty? Will your electrical use be low/medium/high? How much does a kwh cost in your area? Your question is one of mathematics - you need to work the numbers.

for the coffee clutch crowd: the bored need not bother

November, 2011...a very astute chap and happy new green electric producer, former commercial pilot wrote an article:
He has, "a scaled-back farm operation" in central Minnesota where he installed an alternative power system that will indeed pay more than the raw, coop elec bill total each year.
He implied that his present backup power is diesel generated. Real bills and solar/wind production in dollars weren't revealed.
The new, alternate system, somewhat complex, is both a wind and solar system. He has a 120 foot wind tower, triple bladed, (15 foot blades); two 7.5' X 7.5' solar panel arrays, each of which, by DC motors, rotate the panels nearly 360 degrees each day to capture 30% more of the sun than a fixed south-facing sytem. The panels stand on concrete piers by themselves.
City/county ordinances dictate position of these units, along with anchor/footings' criteria. Blades can fly apart in severe conditions and must be able to shut down for those times. Fancy blade control technology!
No mention of his Kw usage, his Kw solar/wind output.
The tower produces three phase alternating current, then a a huge inverter changes it to direct current; then a converter changes it again to single phase AC current---it has to synchronize with the grid of the elec company.
Of course, he still needs Dakota power when conditions are not sufficiently windy, or sufficiently sunlit. And, he might even need the diesel in icing and other power outage times.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TangoW,

quote:

Originally posted by JSB:
Hi Greenies!

Nice to see everyone still here.

I have some exciting news. We are in the process of putting in solar! Our house faces nearly due south & the roof fits 38 panels. That will be able to satisfy 80% of our power requirements. What could be better than that!


See you all soon!

- J

JSB, hello and how is the solar project you set up in July?

quote:

Originally posted by JSB:
Hi Greenies!
I have some exciting news. We are in the process of putting in solar! Our house faces nearly due south & the roof fits 38 panels. That will be able to satisfy 80% of our power requirements. What could be better than that!
See you all soon!
- J

Hi JSB.
July and soon have both come and gone. Are you up to snuff on your exciting investment? Can you relate your data to us for mutual enjoyment?

For those of you interested in Solar Panel reliability,
WSJournal's article Apr 9th on P C10 indicates First Solar, a manufacturer of solar panels is making the warranty provisions higher because, the solar panels "may suffer increased failure rates in hot climates."
How's that, you say?? Hot climates?
We need more information. My experience is that the panels need maintenance after ten years in MN; and that wind, hail, humidity, dirt and cold also play a part in failures at any time.

for green the color white really goes great with it because it makes the green look fab

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AlexisSalazar,

White, cream, black, beige, tan, sienna, almost any pattern with the same tone of green.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Grafton,

Wind turbines:
How Big Can They Get? internet blog:
"A single of these giant wind turbine blades produced by German manufacturer Siemens is almost as big as the wingspan of an Airbus A380, the world's largest airliner. At 75 meters (246 feet), this massive beast is destined for a prototype 6-megawatt turbine to be erected at Denmark's Østerild test station. This arms' race in wind turbine size is due to the simple fact that as turbine blades get longer, the amount of electricity produced increases exponentially - it's all about the surface area covered by the rotor - and as more offshore projects are built, it makes more sense to build fewer big turbines than lots of small ones to control costs."

I for one would think more wind velocity, above the average 8 mph, would be needed to rotate the longer blades. More velocity would be required to move the larger generator's resistance, also. I haven't found any data yet on that.
Also, cost control of such monsters versus small turbines might actually mean higher cost. Regarding grid affect of a shutdown, one small turbine being shutdown would be trifle to a large one. The net costs would be higher to customer and power company.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TangoW,

Which Climatic features affect Solar PV Panel Efficiency? Internet source from power grid companies...

{QUOTE} The following all play some role in determining the solar PV panel efficiency in a given location:


+The amount of sunlight – Solar PV panels generate electricity as a result of a reaction with sunlight. This does not mean broad sunshine is required; simply good levels of general daylight will produce a good solar PV panel efficiency level.
+Light levels – Solar PV panel efficiency will decrease on dark cloudy days but will be high on cold sunny days and even in full moonlight!
+Low light levels – different panels have greater levels of solar PV panel efficiency at lower light levels. This can increase the number of hours in which electricity is produced and thereby improve the solar PV panel efficiency in general.
+Hours of sunlight – the more hours of sunlight the more power produced; this is affected by the time of year and your location – consequently you may need to use more electricity from the grid during the winter as your experience lower solar PV panel efficiency during the darker months.
+Cloud cover – this will affect the overall solar PV panel efficiency of your system.
+Cold – your system should maintain a good solar PV panel efficiency level down to -10 degrees Celsius
+Heat – high temperatures can adversely affect the PV panel efficiency of your system and this can cause panels to cut out
+Shading – can reduce the PV panel efficiency of a whole series of linked panels. It can also produce hotspots and failures if designed incorrectly.[/QUOTE]

A Professor at San Diego State researched the mid day winter solar output and found often times the KwH output didn't reach one KwH. That versus the design output of 5 KwH.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TangoW,

Going green means saving my pocket from huge expenses and helping the environmentalists save the world. Most people think that going green means buying more expensive eco-friendly products but in reality it is just about doing extra caution on what we do and what we use. Simple things like unplugging the power cords from the outlets, turning off appliances that are not in use, turning off lights, using energy efficient products etc. Also the 3Rs can be a huge help for our mother earth. We must Reduce, Reuse and Recycle. -One

This message has been edited. Last edited by: onelyn,

quote:

Originally posted by onelyn:
Going green means saving my pocket from huge expenses and helping the environmentalists

TangoW thinks the key word is environmentalist.
This is not a, "if the show fits, wear it kind of mentality." It's them and we.
It's apparently not known that we were not raised in a cave, or, it is apparently known that we were raised in a cave! :>)

Perhaps this polymer concept design will meet the challenges of fires of lith-ion batteries such as the 787 and the electric car have?

Article below...
Traditional lithium-ion batteries are based on cells (sealed containers) which contain a porous polymer film separator plus liquid chemical filler. This allows lithium ions carrying charge to flow between the two electrodes and also acts as a barrier, holding the electrodes apart to prevent short-circuiting.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2011-09-p...electronics.html#jCp

JSB installed 38 solar panels in July, 2011.

JSB, how is it going? It will be two years in July.
How are the monthly receipts coming together?