This is in response to mountainbeach's post about not trusting her new HE washer....

quote:

It might not have been the most stylish, but for decades the top-loading laundry machine was the most affordable and dependable. Now it's ruined—and Americans have politics to thank.

In 1996, top-loaders were pretty much the only type of washer around, and they were uniformly high quality. When Consumer Reports tested 18 models, 13 were "excellent" and five were "very good." By 2007, though, not one was excellent and seven out of 21 were "fair" or "poor." This month came the death knell: Consumer Reports simply dismissed all conventional top-loaders as "often mediocre or worse."

How's that for progress?

More here....
http://online.wsj.com/article/...202212717670514.html

And don't forget, they took the phsophate out of our detergents so they don't clean as well as they used to either!

I make my own detergent & add phosphate back into it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ga.karen,

Interesting article. I have to find my no grate detergent recipe that I found online. I might try it when all our store bought detergent is gone. Do you want to share your recipe? Thanks

I have adjusted mine to fit our well water.

1C borax
1C WASHING soda (not baking)
1C TSP (phsophate)
1 bar of grated fels naptha soap...you can also use ivory (lg. bar) or one called zote for a milder detergent...less dirty clothes.

I measure all my water so that I end up with 3 gal. of liquid.

Grate the fels naptha & melt it in water over low heat.
Meanwhile, dissovle the other ingredients in water in a large container (5 gal. bucket or a lg. cat litter platic container both work)
I don't store mine in the bucket cause it is messy for me to take it from bucket to machine & I also like to mix my next batch before I run out...so I use old vinegar or cleaning liquids gallon jugs. You are going to need to be able to either shake or stir it each time you use it...so I use 4 jugs...and leave some room at the top.
DO NOT USE old milk jugs. The recipe makes the seams come apart...I learned the hard way...twice!

Once your soap is melted pour it into your other liquids & stir until it starts to thicken...maybe a minute or two.
At that point I start pouring it into my containers. I use the pan I heated it in to dip & pour into a funnel.
And I protect my floor while I'm doing this with a plastic garbage bag.

TSP can be found at Lowes in the paint section. It runs around $10 for a half gallon milk carton container. The other items you should be able to get at Walmart or other grocery stores.

I also got a 5 gal. wooden paint stirrer from Lowes to stir my bucket. These are free if you ask nicely!
A 1 gal. paint stirrer is too short!

This will all "gel"...that's why it needs to be shaken or stirred at use.
I forgot to add that it is low sudsing...so don't expect to see suds on top! This is what HE washers need anyway!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ga.karen,

Phosphates is dangerous to people. Phosphates can KILL streams, lakes and ponds. PHOSPHATES do help detergents to clean better but IF people who "hate the government"--keep using and adding phosphates then don't be surpised if drinkable water goes way up in price and your local water treatment cost more so YOU WILL BE CHARGED more for public water usage!

Although phosphates are an important plant nutrient, higher than normal phosphate levels can destroy the health of the lake, stream or other fresh water body, as they allow algae in the water to grow faster than would naturally occur, turning clear lakes and rivers green and cloudy. This extra algal growth is not only unappealing to look at, but can also make the water smell bad and make it unsuitable for swimming. It can also make drinking water more expensive to filter and can spoil the taste or smell of the drinking water. In the long run, the excess algal growth can have devastating impacts on the health and age of a fresh water lake or river, causing eutrophication to speed up, where lakes and other water bodies fill in with dead algae and other organic matter and eventually turn into dry land

DO you care about your water supply? THE STATE OF WASHINGTON (NOT THE FEDERAL government) is thinking of outlawing DISHWASHER detergents with phosphate because it's killing the clean waters of WASHINGTON STATE!

Sorry, Marcy, but just have a problem taking your over-the-top response to heart.

Any facts to back up such a strong position? Myself, I don't really believe it - might be possible - maybe not. Count me as one who wants more facts and information - not 20 second sound bites to persuade me to change my ways..

Thanks ga.karen for the recipe.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Resident:
Sorry, Marcy, but just have a problem taking your over-the-top response to heart.

Any facts to back up such a strong position? Myself, I don't really believe it - might be possible - maybe not. Count me as one who wants more facts and information - not 20 second sound bites to persuade me to change my ways..

Here you go IR -

The effects of urbanization on water quality:
Phosphorus

Picture showing how soil erosion is a major contributor of phosphorus to streams. Photograph by Lisa Carter.Phosphorus is a common constituent of agricultural fertilizers, manure, and organic wastes in sewage and industrial effluent. It is an essential element for plant life, but when there is too much of it in water, it can speed up eutrophication (a reduction in dissolved oxygen in water bodies caused by an increase of mineral and organic nutrients) of rivers and lakes. Soil erosion is a major contributor of phosphorus to streams. Bank erosion occurring during floods can transport a lot of phosphorous from the river banks and adjacent land into a stream, as this picture of

the Rio Chama near Chamita, New Mexico shows (photograph by Lisa Carter).
Phosphorus in surface and groundwater

Phosphorus gets into water in both urban and agricultural settings. Phosphorus tends to attach to soil particles and, thus, moves into surface-water bodies from runoff. A USGS study on Cape Cod, Massachusetts showed that phosphorus can also migrate with ground-water flows. Since groundwater often discharges into surface water, such as through streambanks into rivers, there is a concern about phosphorus concentrations in ground water affecting the water quality of surface water.

Phosphorus is an essential element for plant life, but when there is too much of it in water, it can speed up eutrophication (a reduction in dissolved oxygen in water bodies caused by an increase of mineral and organic nutrients) of rivers and lakes. This has been a very serious problem in the Atlanta, Ga. area, as a major lake that receives Atlanta's waste water, West Point Lake, is south of the city. In metropolitan Atlanta, phosphorus coming into streams from point sources, primarily wastewater-treatment facilities, have caused West Point Lake to become highly eutrophic ("enriched"). A sign of this is excess algae in the lake. State laws to reduce phosphorus coming from wastewater-treatment facilities and to restrict the use of phosphorus detergents has caused large reductions in the amounts of phosphorus in the Chattahoochee River south of Atlanta, Georgia and in West Point Lake.

Towns in the metropolitan Atlanta area are continuing to expand and upgrade existing wastewater-treatment facilities to handle the increasing volume of wastewater and sewage and to meet stiffer regulations on effluent and river quality.
Additional control of phosphorus from non-point sources (such as applications of lawn fertilizers and disposal of animal wastes) may be useful to maintain or improve the water quality in streams and lakes near growing urban areas.

This chart shows the amount of phosphorus, in tons per year, upstream and downstream of the Chattahoochee River at Atlanta, which is a major source of the local water supply. The amounts of phosphorus downstream of the city have decreased about 77% from the highest levels in 1984 because of both voluntary and mandatory restrictions on phosphorus detergents in the city. As the bottom line shows, though, the total phosphorus load in the more agricultural area north of town continues to increase.
Graph of phosphorus loads before and after restrictions on phosphorus usage

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/phosphorus.html

Without getting into the argument of whether the regulations are needed or not, I will state what I'm miffed about. No human being wants to involuntarily be made to do more work or spend more money. We deeply resent being sent back to the days when it was much harder to have the degree of cleanliness we've come to enjoy. When we wash our clothes, we want them to be bright and to appear new for as long as possible. Without phosphate - or any yet-to-be discovered, safe, chemical replacement for it - the clothes become dingy within just a few washes. Yes, I know about all the "natural" additives - washing soda, borax, vinegar, etc. - but they are NOT as effective as phosphate-containing detergent. I've been doing laundry for 42 years, and I know that's true. Chlorine bleach may remove the dinginess, but it's harmful to water quality, too, and prematurely deteriorates fabric.

When we spend hundreds of dollars on a dishwashing machine, it's bad enough it was made on foreign soil, but it can't even clean the dishes without an effective detergent to put in it. The machine serves no purpose at all. We end up washing dishes by hand if we want them to be clean. Of course we want clean water - who wouldn't? But why can't we have clean clothes and dishes as well? Why does it have to be a trade-off?

So yes, I deeply resent the powers in charge who have sent us back to the 19th century. If they're going to take things away from us, they need to replace them with alternatives that actually work as well or better.

quote:

Originally posted by nettiejay:
Without getting into the argument of whether the regulations are needed or not, I will state what I'm miffed about. No human being wants to involuntarily be made to do more work or spend more money. We deeply resent being sent back to the days when it was much harder to have the degree of cleanliness we've come to enjoy. When we wash our clothes, we want them to be bright and to appear new for as long as possible. Without phosphate - or any yet-to-be discovered, safe, chemical replacement for it - the clothes become dingy within just a few washes. Yes, I know about all the "natural" additives - washing soda, borax, vinegar, etc. - but they are NOT as effective as phosphate-containing detergent. I've been doing laundry for 42 years, and I know that's true. Chlorine bleach may remove the dinginess, but it's harmful to water quality, too, and prematurely deteriorates fabric.

When we spend hundreds of dollars on a dishwashing machine, it's bad enough it was made on foreign soil, but it can't even clean the dishes without an effective detergent to put in it. The machine serves no purpose at all. We end up washing dishes by hand if we want them to be clean. Of course we want clean water - who wouldn't? But why can't we have clean clothes and dishes as well? Why does it have to be a trade-off?

So yes, I deeply resent the powers in charge who have sent us back to the 19th century. If they're going to take things away from us, they need to replace them with alternatives that actually work as well or better.

My sentiments exactly. I remember when the law went into effect that toilets had to use less water. Manufacturers solution was to put a smaller water tank on the same old toilet. The manufacturers didn't come up with better technology until consumers complained and the government wouldn't give the "water wise" label unless they worked using one flush and had the ability to fully remove solid waste. California had the strictest rules and that's what was adopted by the other states.

If washing machine manufactures add cold water to the hot water cycle in order to meet the requirements of energy efficiency they shouldn't be able to earn the energy star label. The gov't never told the manufactures they had to do this. Why doesn't our gov't require labels like the ones in Europe that also include cleaning performance. This is a picture of of one of those labels. Please note that water measurement listed isn't gallons but liters.

I don't know how to "prove it" but I live in the country and ponds with phosphate drining into them become sludge and slimy algae filled water, our creek used to be a horrible mess till this phosphate ban took effect as because of grandfathering--many homes here directly drain their water/waste water into the creek!

PHOSPHATE KILLS STREAMS and MAKES ALGAE--it's a fact proven over and over!

Grandfathering or not - draining waste water directly into surface water should be stopped immediately! THAT is ridiculous!

I agree with nettiejay. We are spending more for inferior results.

I am on 10 acres with a septic system. My waste water goes underground. No more TSP than I'm adding to my laundry for two people - it will never hit surface water. I'm all for clean clothes. Besides, my area is so rural and is basically sparsely populated...none of the waterways have a problem.

If states want to really cut down on phosphates in our water systems...then they need to make it illegal to apply chemical fertilizers to both home lawns & crop fields!
THAT is where the largest amounts come from.

There are also some areas of this country that have more natural phosphate in the soil than others...so what do you do then?

I am also rural and on a septic tank...and mine also goes underground & not near a stream or pond or lake. But I have one heck of a crop of grass all along my drain field from the septic tank!!!!!

Even organic fertilizers break down into chemicals. It's a danged if you do...danged if you don't cycle. Then not to mention the problem with e-coli if the manure is spread on food crops too close to harvest.